Bulk tanks

[MikeAurelius]

This has been a topic covered on several other boards and if you haven't seen any of them, I'd like to bring to light some of the issues at stake.

I've seen posted statements by hothead/bulk tank users like the following:

I'm in a 2nd story studio and am keeping the tank (either inside or out on the balcony).

I run my fuel line through a pvc pipe in the wall.

I run my fuel line through the (door/window).

I keep my tank right next to me in the studio
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As I see it, I personally believe that using a bulk tank with a Hot Head or Fireworks torch is a Very Bad Idea. These torches are designed to use full tank pressure, which is anywhere from 90 to 110 PSI. There is no regulator anywhere inline, except for a tiny orifice to "spray" the propane/MAPP gas into the mixing/combustion chamber of the torch.

First of all, penetrating the wall of a residence with fuel gas pressures in excess of 5 PSI is illegal (20 PSI I think is legal for licensed commercial/industrial facilities, but correct me if I'm wrong).

Running rubber hose through a pvc pipe through the wall or door or window is illegal.

Running a hose through a door or window is still penetrating the wall.

Keeping a bulk tank inside is illegal.

Keeping a bulk tank on an outside balcony is illegal.

The only safe and legal way to operate a Hot Head/Fireworks torch is by using one pound cannisters. The use of bulk tanks with these torches is a practice which must stop before there is a tragic accident.

The bulk tank adapters and hoses that many people use are designed for outside use with things like camp stoves. Let me repeat that: designed for outside use.

Please consider the fact that a bulk tank will empty out in minutes, filling the average sized room with perhaps 100 times the explosive threshold of propane before it could be stopped.

I ask that the ISGB step up to the plate and somehow "endorse" these items. Perhaps then this unsafe method of operating these torches can come to an end.

These are my personal opinions and statements, and may not reflect those of the ISGB.

[daffodildeb]

Mike, can you tell us why running a hose through an open door or window to an outside tank is illegal? And why is a bulk tank on an outside 1 1/2 story high private (single family home) balcony illegal?

Seems like rather sweeping generalizations...

PS: I run a Minor, not a HH. Is that the difference?

[Vince]

The prohibition for balconies applies only to multi-family residences with three or more floors that are NOT served by exterior stairways. For single-family residences, there is no such restriction. For single family residences or for multiple units with two floors, portable tanks are permitted on balconies. For units that have balconies that are served by exterior stairways, there is no restriction on having portable tanks on a balcony at any floor level.

Plastic pipe is not permitted as a wall penetration, even though some plastic pipe (Polyamide and Polyethylene) is permitted for underground outdoor installation only. All wall penetrations must be made with metallic pipe. TEMPORARY use of a hose through a door, window or other opening is not considered to be a wall penetration and is not prohibited. The key word here is "temporary". That means that you bring the hose in, use it, and take it away when done. Anything else must be permanently plumbed.

I agree with Mike about using bulk tanks for these fuel-air torches that are designed for a small one-pound canister. In my opinion this is dangerous and should not be done. It is not illegal, but it is dangerous.

Vince

[MikeAurelius]

Thanks for the clarifications Vince, and thanks for your endorsement.

Deb - the issue is only with fuel/air torches such as the Hot Head and Fireworks torch. Fuel/oxygen torches have regulators mounted to the tank that decrease the line pressure from 100 PSI to around 5 PSI.

[margi]

While we are (sort of) on the subject, I think I already know that the answer to this question will be a resounding "NO," but I'll ask it anyway: is there any legal, safe, and practical way to tap into a large, residential-sized propane tank (120 gallon, in my own case I think) to use propane from that tank to fuel one's glass torch(es)?

The question just popped into my head because I happen to be changing propane companies and having a new tank and 100 gallons of propane delivered next week, and saw this thread...

Obviously, propane consumption is not the huge issue that 02 consumption is if one is using compressed 02. But I'm just curious as to whether or not such a thing is possible?

(Please note that I did write "legal, safe, and practical" before answering me, okay, guys?) Thanks.

Margi

[Dale_M]

Margi:

Yes its possible to tap into you large outside tank. It's been mentioned many times on this forum that you can pipe in propane into your studio using steel piping and at a pressure of 20psi or less. By using proper regulator at tank, plenty of correct piping, a safety shut off valve where pipe enters building and a safety shut off valve inside. Inside shut off valve should be before inside (adjustable) regulator if you choose to have second regulator inside.

I believe the whole concerns that the codes and ordnances address is HOW you get the propane into the building (mechanical piping and pressure). I do not believe that are any prohibitions on how large the propane source tank or fuel source is.

Suggest you consult a plumber or HVAC technician qualified to do fuel gas piping if you have any desire to do this type of installation. Building permit(s) and inspection(s) may also be required

Dale

[Vince]

This is easily and legally done. Discuss with your Propane supplier. We have covered it here many times.

Vince

[daffodildeb]

Thanks, Vince. Mike had me sweating there for a minute. Yeah, I agree with the definition of "temporary" and this is what I do. And baby, it's cold out there now! Okay, at least for Houston... (It's 44 tonight.) So, much as I hate to end a session, sometimes I have to just to bring in the hose and close the door.

[Janz]

I'd just like to suggest that maybe this thread could be made into an article or something to be posted in the reference library.

The fact that there are alot of legal problems to consider when using a bulk tank might not to all that dissuading... I think it is this statment which might cause some to change their minds about bulk hook-ups...

"Please consider the fact that a bulk tank will empty out in minutes, filling the average sized room with perhaps 100 times the explosive threshold of propane before it could be stopped."

How many people work in basements? Couldn't a pilot light cause an explosion?
Anyone who works in a room in their home with a bulk tank set up outside or wherever, is endangering their family, their home and homes and families around them, if any.

I just think that such information should be able to been seen...in the refernce library there is info on how to get a bulk set up, there ought to be info on the dangers of that set up as well.

janz