More Q's about propane

[ARussell]

Hello all.

After an 8-year hiatus I'm planning on getting back into jewelry making - mostly working with silver. I tend to collect hobbies, and thought lampworking might be fun. I understand that the torch specs for silver soldering are different from those required for lampworking, and that I wouldn't be able to use the same torch handle for both applications, but I know I read a post by someone here who said they had a separate torch handle that they connected to the oxy-propane set-up they used for silver soldering when they wanted to do lampwork.

My question is primarily about the whole issue of LP tanks inside. Everything I have read indicates that it is illegal to have a portable LP tank in your house if it holds more than 1lb of gas? Is this correct? I'm questioning this because the Smith Little Torch oxy-propane set-up uses a 5-lb LP tank in a configuration that is very obviously portable and meant to sit next to your jewelers bench. As long-standing, reputable companies, (both Smith and Rio Grande - the supplier whose catalog I'm referencing) I think they would be well aware of safety codes concerning the fuels their equipment was meant to use, and wouldn't sell something that was in obvious violation of safety codes. I also have never known any jewelers or silversmiths who had the fuel for their torches outside unless they were the really big tanks. Mostly I've used the B and MC sized tanks for oxygen and acetylene. Is a jeweler's torch system somehow qualitatively different from a lampworker's torch system in regards to code requirements? Do I have the max limit for size of a portable propane tank wrong? Why in all my years of silversmithing have I never heard any of the professionals insist that fuel tanks must be outside your house? There must be lampworkers out there who also do silver soldering. How have you dealt with this issue of not wanting two completely separate torch systems?

I hope this all makes some kind of sense I'm trying to determine whether I should pursue this hobby, or just accept the fact that I can't do it safely where I am and give up on the idea.

TIA-

Alison Russell

[Emily]

I don't know if it was my post you read before or not, but I have a Little Torch for silver soldering. I have quick-connects on my hoses. When I want to solder, I stick the propane hose for the Little Torch out the same hole in the window that I use for the propane hose for my glass torch, and hook it to the same propane tank. (I do set the pressure at the regulator lower for the Little Torch than for the glass torch). The propane stays outside. I have an oxygen concentrator, so it's just a matter of connecting it to the oxy hose for the LT rather than the oxy hose for the glass torch. Yes, it means that I do my soldering on the same table where I lampwork, but that's where my ventilation hood is anyway.

[michey]

Everything I have read indicates that it is illegal to have a portable LP tank in your house if it holds more than 1lb of gas? Is this correct?

-Correct.

I'm questioning this because the Smith Little Torch oxy-propane ........... and wouldn't sell something that was in obvious violation of safety codes.

-Rio Grande states they sell to people in the jewelry industry, not hobbiests. Having a torch may or may not be in violation as it varies from state to state even country that is the responbility of the buyer not Rio. The gas is the big issue and they don't tell you to keep it in your *home*. In a commerical setting gas indoors is often legal. Note: *commerical* MAY be legal not your home.

I also have never known any jewelers or silversmiths who had the fuel for their torches outside unless they were the really big tanks.

-People do all sorts of things. Doesn't make it safe or legal. As I am sure almost every parent in existance has said: If your friends jumped off a cliff would you do it too? It is your responbility have the knowledge to make a decision.

jeweler's torch system somehow qualitatively different from a lampworker's torch system in regards to code requirements?
-No. it is the gas that is the big issue. Gas goes outside of a *home*. Period. Home includes the garage. Even those bbq tanks people are so fond of keeping in the garage shouldn't be there.

Do I have the max limit for size of a portable propane tank wrong?

-No. One pound is correct.

Why in all my years of silversmithing have I never heard any of the professionals insist that fuel tanks must be outside your house?

-Because many people don't bother to research and learn before doing. Many do things the way they have seen others or the way they have done it for 20 years. Very good that you at least asked instead of presumed from other's behavior. You also will find very few silversmithers that advocate good ventilation. Ventilation does not equal 'just open a window'.......I've heard that one a few hundred times.

There must be lampworkers out there who also do silver soldering.

-Of course. Many do both.

How have you dealt with this issue of not wanting two completely separate torch systems?

-Quick connects on the hoses. Solves the issue simply and quickly if you are using propane/oxygen. If acetylene you will just have to deal with a seperate tank(outdoors!) as it is not suitable for glass work but can use the same oxygen.

[ARussell]

So I assume this means even my little MC sized acetylene tank that I used to use was not supposed to be inside?

I'm guessing that it's not so much a matter of commercial buildings being safer (i.e. your torch is not more likely to explode simply by virtue of it being in a residential building) than that residences are not built to withstand such damage and/or there is a greater likelihood of damage to personal property and the people in the building? Although I can't imagine that property damage or casualties would be much less in a commercial building than a residence. If one followed all the same standard Best Practice safety practices for a gas torch as those used in a commercial setting it would be just as "safe" (least likely to cause accidents) to have a torch in a residence, but might not be legal as far as state and local building codes? I'm not trying to argue the point, just trying to understand things better. Best Practice safety precautions and Building Code safety standards require different actions be in compliance, if you understand me? Clear as mud? If I ever got into a commercial space I'd like to know what was still not OK compared to residential settings.

Smith also makes a portable Little Torch set-up that uses disposable tanks for the oxygen and propane. Would it most likely to be legal to have this type of torch inside? I believe both tanks are 1lb or less. If I could use this set-up then I could switch to the larger tanks if I am ever in a position to be able to plumb gas lines into my house. Right now I rent, and am likely to be renting for a very long time. I can't see any landlord allowing me to put extra holes in their walls for an external fuel tank! Proper ventilation I can do, but no holes in the walls!

Alison

[Dale_M]

WHOA... Acetylene tank... That is not propane, and does NOT have same restrictions.... Acetylene is a lighter than air gas and will "float" away, does not have "pooling" dangers that the heavier than air propane has..

Dale

[margi]

Oh, am I glad that Dale jumped in to respond to this question of your's, Alison, because that was going to be my own tentative answer too, but I was going to go off and check my facts first before I responded so as not to make a fool of myself!

I myself have been a jeweler for 37 years and a full-time lampworker for 3 point something years now. I too questioned these fuel storage issues in the beginning, as I first learned to solder with a Prestolite acetylene/air torch, using a "B-" sized acetylene tank most of the time, and I learned in studios where the gas was kept indoors, as well as the oxygen that we metalsmiths also used when needing a hotter flame for applications like melting metals for casting.

I also learned and practiced oxy/acetylene welding in an art school welding studio where all the tanks we used were kept inside a large metal warehouse kind of building. I've owned oxygen and acetylene tanks for 30-some years now, and the indoors/outdoors issue only arose for the first time when I began to use propane as a fuel for lampworking. (I myself have never owned a torch that utilized propane as the fuel for soldering metal.) My actetylene tank always stood four or five feet away from my soldering torch, safely chained to a wall or post or whatever was available in my particular studio configuration at the time. My welding/casting 02 and acetylene tanks, torches, and other equipment I usually kept in a separate place, such as a garage, since I used them less frequently. And never did I worry about fuel "pooling" on the floor.

So along came propane/02 into my daily life, and this new issue arose. It was thanks to this Forum that I learned fairly quickly that it was totally unsafe to store a propane tank indoors, in any situation at all, due to its tendency to settle towards the floor and become highly--and invisibly--flammable!

I myself don't do a lot of soldering, casting or welding anymore, but I still own all the equipment, and have access to it when I do want to use it. I keep my acetylene tank in an outdoor storage building, and either carry it into my schoolbus-studio when I want to solder, or hook it up outdoors with my 02 tank on the very rare occasions when I need a welding or cutting flame. So in my own case, I do in fact have two separate fuel and torch set-ups. As Emily stated above, however, it obviously IS possible to use the same propane/02 set-up for both soldering and lampworking, although the torches would be quite different from each other, and one would need to switch back and forth between them. Glass torches are used in a stationary, rather than a mobile position, for traditional mandrel-based beadmaking.

Oxygen for a propane/oxygen glass torch can be supplied by one of three sources: compressed 02, which gets used up at a HORRIFYINGLY fast rate if one spends a lot of hours on their torch, as I do myself; a medical oxygen concentrator, which runs off AC power and somehow purifies and concentrates 02 sufficiently to power the "smaller" of the glass torches (that's a whole separate topic in itself); or an oxygen "generator," an expensive (over $2000) machine that somehow creates a higher concentration of purified 02 than a concentrator (but less pressure than that supplied by compressed oxygen.) (BTW, an 02 tank of less than one pound capacity would probably last maybe 20 minutes when used with a glass torch!? Just guessing--but totally impractical to consider as a solution.)

If I were you, with the propane tank storage question answered, I would ask myself some more probing questions before taking the leap. Lampworking may in fact be "a hobby" for many people, but it is one that requires very specialized equipment, ideally some skilled instruction or at least a lot of research and/or investment in books and videos, and a serious commitment of funds in order to practice the art-form safely AND produce beads and other glass objects that will endure. Glass beads must be kiln-annealed in order to heat-temper them, or they just won't last--i.e., will be very likely to crack or even splinter into shards. Therefore, most beadmakers sooner or later end up buying a specialized kiln with a digital heat controller, which is a fairly high-ticket item ($500-$750 or so, unless you luck into a good used one.) Many beadmakers also end up using that same kiln to do fused jewelry items and/or larger sheet-glass-based pieces.

Jewelry torches are pretty much unsuitable for lampworking, so one needs to invest in a different kind of torch entirely--unless there is some torch made (that I myself am unfamiliar with) that can be adapted to being held stationary in an upright position at just the appropriate angle for beadmaking. (There IS an inexpensive single fuel torch made that runs around $60, I think--called a HotHead, and another one called a Quiet-something--that many people start out with, that runs off MAPP gas, or propane, or...help me here folks, as I've never used one. Slow-melting, noisy, but many people use them for years without ever upgrading to a "fancier" torch.)

I don't mean to sound discouraging, as working with hot glass is one of the most magical pursuits available to us on God's green earth, and many people who have spent their lives "collecting hobbies" feel, when they discover the mystical properties of molten glass, that they have finally found their TRUE life-calling, and that their attraction to other media and pursuits just falls away organically! But it is a costly "hobby," which requires the purchase of dedicated equipment, special attention to unique safety concerns, and tends to promote an insatiable desire to acquire MORE...!

More of what? Well, all the gourgeous varieties and colors of glass itself, special filtering safety glasses (a must have!), elbow rests, customized ventilation systems, a myriad of hand tools and metal leaves and foils and other seductive materials that can be combined with glass to create special effects, and the desire to take workshops and trainings, and to travel to far-away places to join up with other hot glass artists for Gatherings and "Open Torch" sessions and food and frolic and fun...and the possibility of saying farewell to life as you once knew it and becoming a wholly committed, totally addicted, hopelessly incurable glassaholic!

I know whereof I speak, because it has happened to me, as it has happened to so many of the rest of us, here, there, and around the world! Glass (and jewelry-making) are my entire life now--I have no other--and while sometimes I feel that my life has become too one-dimensional (and sometimes, just plain TOO HARD, since I have attempted to make my living doing this exclusively now for four years, in a very rough economy), at other times I wouldn't have it any other way!

This is my very long-winded way of saying that there is a lot more to consider before embarking on experimenting with this very unique medium than simply the issue of fuel-tank placement. I'm sure that I'm not telling you anything that you haven't already considered yourself, as you are obviously a thoughtful person who has begun to do some research and is not likely to just blunder forth without further exploration into the myriad of details, technical considerations and expenses involved. Hot glass is pure magic--but it is also a science that has a lot of "rules" one must, or should follow, in order to practice that art and science both safely AND pleasurably!

If you stick around here for awhile, you can learn a lot of what you will need to know by checking things out using the "search" and "archives" functions, and asking new questions, and reading other peoples' posts. Most of us here are passionate about the medium and are very willing to share what we know and ask questions about what we do not. ((And one of the things that you are finding out right now is that I am probably--no, certainly!! --the most verbose person who posts regularly on this Forum. But ah, I am a writer too, who is not doing much other writing these days except HERE, so I go on...and on...and on...and hope that I am helpful, or at least provide some humor, at least some (or much?) of the time.(?)) And by now I have written SO much that I have forgotten your original question--oh yes, do you need to keep your 5-gallon propane tank outdoors if you want to stay safe? Yes. One-pound one? No.

Welcome to the ISGB Forum, and keep on posting your questions if you decide that you want to stick around and learn more about this uniquely compelling substance that looks like a solid but is actually a slow-moving liquid. That paradox alone is enough to endow glass with a very special sense of mystery! I developed a new phrase recently to describe the medium at art shows, BTW: I now describe hot glass as an ancient art-form that is still in its infancy!

Margi--a hopelessly addicted "glass-baby!"

[Vince]

I think most of your questions have been answered.

As far as regulations are concerned, there is a difference between what is permitted in one "class" of building versus another "class" of building, and the codes do specify these differences. There is NOT a difference in whether or not a practice is dangerous or not, or whether or not a specific material is dangerous or not. The codes allow for differences in their application based on building class due to assumptions about the occupancy of the buildings and the competency of the typical occupants of those classes of buildings. For example, portable refillable propane tanks are permitted on forklifts used in industrial settings like warehouses, but are not permitted anywhere in your home. Exotic compressed gases of all sorts are permitted in manufacturing plants and laboratories, but not in your home.

What people actually do and what is safe and/or permitted often have wide variances. This is why one sees photographs of propane tanks next to lampworking benches supposedly in residences. It is not safe and it is illegal.

It is quite simple to have propane supply outside one's studio and have outlets in the studio for both lampworking and soldering torches. In my case, I simply have a multi outlet manifold into which I can plug up to eight torches of any sort using oxygen and propane. Other artists have various other but similar solutions.

In no state in the USA is it legal to have a portable, refillable LP gas tank that has a capacity of more than one pound of LP gas inside a dwelling. Disposable tanks of one pound or less capacity are permitted so long as no more than two such tanks are on the premises. Rules for industrial and commercial spaces may be different and may vary by jurisdiction.

Vince

[gaylh]

I have just taken my first lampworking class, and plan to take several more. I am hoping to eventually set up a studio with a Minor torch using propane and oxygen if I can figure out a way to do it safely and legally. Where would you recommend I learn about the codes and restrictions as well as ventilation recommendations (in addition to this forum)? I don't know where to start. (I live in the state of Maryland) I appreciate your efforts to help us understand the need for safety.

Thank you for your help, Gayl